Interview with a Professional Card Counter & AP
Heather - Today I am joined with the special guest, an expert! However we have to keep his identity anonymous. Plus that shark was a little hard to get off of him so we just left the shark on.
Mystery Guest - I like it.
Heather - Yeah, it’s Sharknado time, this time of year. And we have sharks flying all over the place, so one of them got you. I’m sorry we are going to have to pry it off of you with a crowbar but...Thank you for doing the interview while you have a shark on you.
Mystery Guest - Nice to see you.
Heather - Thank you! Now for the audience, even though you are anonymous and mysterious and you know the tall dark handsome, mysterious guy. What can you tell people about yourself? Is there anything you can tell them about yourself?
Mystery Guest - It’s my anonymous Bio. I have yet to write an anonymous Bio, but I guess I could say that I started as a teenager playing Blackjack, counting cards as a teenager in Las Vegas. It’s the only real job I ever had.
Heather - So you have been doing this all your life?
Mystery Guest - Pretty much. A little bit off and on, but pretty much all my life.
Heather - Does that mean it’s true that you can make a living off of playing Blackjack?
Mystery Guest - Only job I’ve have ever had.
Heather - So how easy of a job is it?
Mystery Guest - Oh! Oh it’s impossible. It’s funny to even think about it. Well there’s -- I have a lot to say about that but I guess I would say -- I’ll start by saying this, people think that you have to be a genius to count cards. That once you are, you can just treat the casinos as your little ATM. It’s exactly the opposite, counting cards is really simple. I can teach anybody to count cards in one session. But to make a living at it, over a long period of time is very hard.
Heather - Does that mean that there’s more to it than card counting and that’s what makes it hard?
Mystery Guest - Yes, for instance there is this idea that you are a wanted person and you’re going -- I kind of love it. You're going into these casinos and play with all of these cameras, men in suits watching you, trying to figure out if you're doing exactly what you are doing, and I find that really inspiring. Motivating.
Heather - Not scary. OMG I would be so freaked out if it was me.
Mystery Guest - Well it can be -- it wasn’t for me. I think -- and that’s the thing you have to be -- you have to have that kind of personality pushing you. You don’t mind being in the spotlight. And you don’t mind going into the house of the man and taking his money. But there is more to it than that, there’s this idea that even though you will win in the short run you can win you can lose. Our human brains are not wired for that. You have to be a little weird to be alright with that. And you have to believe the math. And there’s a lot of people that are really good at math. But when it really comes down to it, when their life is on the line, they believe the math. You have to believe.
Heather - So what math are you talking about in particular? Can you share with us your Einstein brain in which you know.
Mystery Guest - I don’t have an Einstein brain. The math I am talking about is 2 + 1 = 3.
Heather - You are one of the best though, right? I mean you are good!
Mystery Guest - Thank you!
Heather - Yeah!
Mystery Guest - But, I mean the simple math and you know you are in control of playing a hand of blackjack the best you can, with the knowledge you have. That’s under your control. But whether you win or lose that hand, it’s not under your control. And that can be kinda mind blowing. And I really do think it takes a special -- “special” quote on quote. Not necessarily good. Or in a good way. But it takes a special mind to be able to handle the ups and the downs and the drama.
Heather - I have so much to ask you. Ok. The ups and the downs. Let’s start with that. You’ve seen some crazy streaks, because that is part of gambling. Gambling is all about the streaks. That includes the winning streaks but the losing streaks. Can you tell me two stories both polar opposites of an incredible winning streak and then an incredible losing streak. Not just -- like you didn’t have to experience it, you could have seen someone else experience it, but just an amazing streak that you have never fathomed before.
Mystery Guest - I forgotten those stories. But I don’t know why but what’s popping in my head is this… We were playing BEEP at BEEP casino. Is it still there?
Heather - Yes it is still there.
Mystery Guest - But we were there. And you know I have a teammate, we had four on a table. We do a special thing. Our advantage was so big and so strong and I just remember feeling so powerful. It’s crazy.
Heather - I bet that was an amazing feeling.
Mystery Guest - Yeah I’ve felt it other times as well. Not only when you are supposed to win, but you are winning, and you are going to be able to continue to win. It’s an amazing thing. Now those things get thrown sometimes. Maybe you start losing, maybe you start getting some heat. Maybe you worry whether you or your team mates has made a mistake in some way, and your edge is lowered. But when it’s all working, it’s a very powerful feeling.
Heather - That’s really cool. Now have you experienced the opposite? Where instead of say winning you thought everything should be working right but for some reason everything was just not working right?
Mystery Guest - Sure. I mean so many stories, right. Thousands of stories of each of those things. But the one that is popping into my head right now, maybe because we are in Las Vegas, but I back to downtown, I am in my 20’s, I am playing at the main pit in BEEP and I have a computer in my shoes and wires going through my clothes and walking in feeling pretty powerful and you know I am supposed to win. This was before they had outlawed machine play in Nevada. This is when it was still legal. But I was supposed to win, I was playing a full deck shoe. I kinda knew what was coming, most of the time. But somehow, maybe I wasn’t at the top of my game or maybe it was just a bad run , but I just -- talk about the 80’s. I just couldn’t win a hand, I ended up emptying my pockets of $35,000.
Heather - Wow!
Mystery Guest - At the end of it, I remember that night one of the pit bosses came over handed her card to me and the back of it said -- something like Jesus is the answer. I was like -- I was so freaked out, and angry, and upset. But you know ultimately, you don’t really -- it is hard to lose. It’s hard to have a bad streak. But ultimately we don’t play with money, where it’s not part of the plan. Part of a long term plan to win and lose, based on whatever edge you have. And have a plan. And end up on the positive end.
Heather - So even though you are absolutely incredible, you know your shit, you are just one of the best out there, you are so amazing. So even you have days where you still lose no matter what.
Mystery Guest - Absolutely!
Heather - I think a lot of people don’t realize that they think when you can count cards they go in there and they just go in and they win and they can never lose. And they don’t realize you are playing against a force. Sometimes that force wants you to lose, and you are going to lose. You know. So I think it would be very helpful to the people out there who are trying this, to know that there are days where you are just -- no matter what you do, you could be absolutely doing the best you can do at being amazing and you are still going to have days where you lose.
Mystery Guest - Sure. And you have to know what your edge is and what the probability and what your element of run is, and you have to have enough money. You have to have a bank roll large enough to handle those swings.
Heather - And what would be a -- so for a poor person what would be a good bank roll and for a rich person what would be a good bank roll.
Mystery Guest - I don’t know what you mean by a poor person or rich person but -- Yeah what do you mean?
Heather - I was thinking about $5000 for a poor person and then $100,000 for a rich person.
Mystery Guest - Well you just have to -- I have been poor and betting a lot of money on the tables and I have been rich and have been betting hardly any money on the tables, so things matter more than your personal wealth at the time. It matters how much a casino can take. And it matters what the limits are.
Heather - So what do you think is a good bank roll?
Mystery Guest - There is no easy way to answer that question. You have to do the math, you have to take your edge into account, and -- these days I play early high edge games. Most of the time these days I don’t have to do that now. But in the old days, if you’re card counting you absolutely have to do the math. You have to know what your edge is, and the probability of losing, how many units is. You know, I am sure there are some good books out there.
Heather - Do you have any good books you can recommend?
Heather - Okay.
Mystery Guest - If you can get one.
Heather - Oh really?
Mystery Guest - Yeah. I’ve got two.
Heather - Are any of them signed?
Mystery Guest - He wouldn’t do it.
Heather - You don’t have a signed book?
Mystery Guest - I don’t have a signed book.
Heather - Well there you go. So moving on, so card counting is not illegal, it is perfectly legal. For the people out there that are trying to learn, what would you suggest to them? Do you have any tips, hints, tricks, anything you have learned. Do you want to share your knowledge with them?
Mystery Guest - Card counting?
Heather - Yes, with card counting.
Mystery Guest - That was a long time ago. I still come across some card counting situations, these days, but I guess I would just suggest practicing.
Heather - And you practice blackjack strategy, you practice the deviations, you practice --
Mystery Guest - You can have flashcards for index numbers and count down decks. You can walk around with this deck of cards in your pocket or in your hand. Any time you are sitting you can count the deck down.
Heather - How fast can you count a single deck?
Mystery Guest - It’s been a long time since I have timed myself, but I used to time myself I think I got to 8 seconds.
Heather - That is crazy! 8 seconds, that is so amazing.
Mystery Guest - It’s a trick though. You just. A. It’s not so important that you count fast. You know. It won’t give you the money if you are fast or any better. But if you count accurately it does very much matter. You know so you always count accurately and then you force yourself to get faster and faster all while maintaining that accurately.
Heather - So what else is important besides accuracy?
Mystery Guest - Well as I have mentioned before, it’s the frame of mind. Your -- you know I don’t think this is something you can learn. You have to be -- I think you have to be a little bit crazy.
Heather - Why tell me?
Mystery Guest - To be a professional gambler you have to be a little bit different.
Heather - So basically if I ever have a professional gambler come up to me and want to date me I should just say no to all of them, right? Because they are all crazy?
Mystery Guest - Absolutely! That’s my advice.
Heather - That works. I think that goes for all gamblers, honestly.
Mystery Guest - Well certainly, you know certainly if a gambler is a problem gambler --
Heather - Yes!
Mystery Guest - --Oh my goodness run!
Heather - So have you ever experienced that? Like you have been doing this for a very long time. Have you ever had someone on your team or known a friend who just really had a problem and what did you do about it?
Mystery Guest - Yeah I had a sister who was a problem gambler. There was nothing that I could do. And not to take us to a difficult place, but in the end she killed herself.
Heather - Oh no, I am so sorry!
Mystery Guest - It’s a really -- that’s what I mean about, you have to have a special kind of brain. You have to have a special way to understand what’s happening in front of you. Most people -- it just messes with you. Just the wins and the losses and the heat and the strange and different sort of lifestyle issues. I think that one problem is that we have to play a lot of graveyard for various reasons in order to avoid heat. Or in order to get good conditions. I just think that’s -- I look back and I think that is so unhealthy -- intoxicating rhythms, and being healthy. Sleeping when the sun goes down and getting up when up when the sun comes up. It’s a problem, but no I have seen a lot of people who are problem gamblers. There's nothing you can really do -- You know I try to avoid. I certainly don't work with those people.
Heather - So it’s not good to have someone like that on your team. Because when you are on a team everyone has to be very dedicated and focused. It’s like a job.
Mystery Guest - Everybody has to be as weird as you. Yeah that’s right.
Heather - But it is like a job. It’s not like you're going into the casino and having fun, this is work. And this is a different frame of mind, right?
Mystery Guest - Yes that’s a given. I didn’t even think to say that. That is just an assumption.
Heather - Well --
Mystery Guest - It’s a job.
Heather - So the next question is, What count do you use? I have had people ask me, “Oh what count do I use when I am counting cards? And what I usually tell them is I just tell them, do the easiest one that you can do that fits you if you are comfortable with it, you do it. But I know people still want to know, what does a professional card counter use?
Mystery Guest - Well most of the professional card counters that I knew and know use the simple Hi/Lo.
Heather - Awesome
Mystery Guest - Aces and 10’s verses 2 thru 6, 7 and 8 & 9’s are neutral. When I started I would play a lot of single deck, and I didn’t really get how we didn’t need to work quite that hard. I had an index for 13 against a 7. I know I made really not much money with that index. I used -- I started out counting Hi Up 3,4,5,6 vs 10’s.
Heather - Right.
Mystery Guest - Aces on the side. I also counted 7 on the side as well.
Heather - Oh okay.
Mystery Guest - For a single deck that is nice. You know when you got 14 against a 10 it’s nice to know how many 7s are in that deck. But ultimately it mattered so much more how you gage the heat. And how you knew when to get out of the casino, or -- And so many other little things that were more important than knowing how many 7s are left in the deck.
Heather - So it sounds like you are combining math with social skills. There’s not very many people that can do both of those.
Mystery Guest - Yeah, you not only have to have social skills, but you have to have that weird brain that can handle the swings and the heat and such. It’s rare. I am not sure I have the social skills. I don’t think I do.
Heather - So you keep saying that it takes a weird brain to do this. What -- if you could make up a person that is completely fictional, what qualities would you give this person that would make them a really great card counter? Besides a photographic memory.
Mystery Guest - You know maybe it doesn’t matter that much about card counting.
Heather - Okay.
Mystery Guest - Like that Hi/lo that I was talking about 2 thru 6 vs 10s and aces. You're just remembering one number. One number, so you don’t have to have a photographic memory. So it’s not a good brain. So it’s not a memory thing. I wouldn’t know how to describe that person. I know him when I meet him. I have a few friends that fit that description. I don’t even know what it is exactly. I wouldn’t even know really how to describe it. Or certainly not know how to look for it. You work with somebody and you learn about their rhythms, you learn about what goes on in their head before, and during, and after they play. And you see who is good and you see who is not.
Heather - Is working in a team especially difficult as in finding people who you groove with or finding the correct people that let’s say don’t know blow their top if heat is applied.
Mystery Guest - Yeah that is a big conversation. You know when you are working with other people there’s issues of -- you know you have to have trust. And you have to be justified in that trust. There’s a lot to that part of it. And then the other part of it, you see it pretty much everywhere -- in my experience is that I’m not surprised -- if you know somebody pretty well after seeing them work under pressure in a casino, you know pretty quickly.
Heather - What makes a bad team player?
Mystery Guest - Well, a dishonest person.
Heather - Oh if they are trying to steal from you guys? Does that happen often?
Mystery Guest - It definitely happens you have to be really careful, you have to know who you are playing with. So there’s that. And then there's people -- so there’s also trust in terms of what you are doing, what kind of tricks you are doing, and whether it’s fair for that person to talk to somebody else who’s not on the team about those tricks and -- and things like that. It gets pretty complicated and it gets, you get caught.
Heather - What do you look for when you go in?
Mystery Guest - In a teammate or in a casino?
Heather - In a casino. So if you and your team are going to a casino --
Mystery Guest - Sure, I can answer that question. That’s an easy question.
Heather - Oh okay.
Mystery Guest - We want a casino that’s making a lot of money.
Heather - For themselves?
Mystery Guest - Yes.
Heather - Okay.
Mystery Guest - If they are making a lot of money we can operate -- they won’t notice us and we won’t matter.
Heather - How do you determine that?
Mystery Guest - We just look around. A lot of people are playing a lot of money. They are making the casinos a lot of money.
Heather - For example, if you went to Las Vegas or the Las Vegas strip you would hit Bellagio, Venetian, Wynn, one of the upper tier type of casinos?
Mystery Guest - Yes, there are other casinos that are making a lot of money. There are other casinos that are not maybe considered upper tier but generally, yes.
Heather - So what do you look for to consider that they are making a lot of money then? If it could be a lower tier casino?
Mystery Guest - Well it’s simple, you just see action. If they are getting a lot of action they are making a lot of money. You can assume that almost everybody is a bad gambler in a casino. So if there’s action, casinos are making money.
Heather - So a busy casino.
Mystery Guest - A busy casino or people playing high.
Heather - A lot of money?
Mystery Guest - Yeah. Or action.
Heather - So what if you went into a casino, it’s dead there’s not very many people?
Mystery Guest - You’re not going to make much money in there. It doesn’t matter what you do. It doesn’t matter how good you are.
Heather - Why is that?
Mystery Guest - Well it’s not just about -- it’s not a game in a bubble, it’s a game, it’s a business, the casino is in business to make money from gamblers. If they are not making money from gamblers there’s going to be issues from the top all the way down. You know the dealers are not going to be making any money. The bosses aren’t going to be making money. I mean the owners will not be making money, everyone in between. They would do something. They would close their business Or they would change their business and they would certainly be really watchful in terms of gamblers that are actually winning. They don’t like that. Certain casinos are famous for thinking everybody is card counting and everybody has an edge and other casinos kind of let you play a little more. You know so, you have that. It usually comes from the top, owners on down. But then more importantly is just that the casinos make money. They are doing well. That’s the number one thing. You wouldn’t think. You would think there would be a lot of other things. There’s a lot of ways to go get an advantage at the casino. Almost every casino offers something. The only thing that makes one seem different from another is whether they are making money or not. If they are making money everybody is happy. The owners are happy, the bosses are happy, the dealers are happy, the gamblers are happy and we are happy. Everybody is making money.
Heather - So you blend in?
Mystery Guest - Yes. They aren’t -- they’ll let you take more.
Heather - Okay. They are used to it.
Mystery Guest - Right before they ask you to leave.
Heather - So if you went into a break-in house where $5 minimum is normal and you go in and try to play $100 you are going to get attention fast and that is why you’re not looking for. But if you go to a busy casino and your $100 is a normal bet and people are making it all the time, that is a good casino to go to because they are used to it, right?
Mystery Guest - That’s generally true.
Heather - Got it! I think I understand it. Cool. So what else do you look for and what else do you think about before you start card counting?
Mystery Guest - Well, all those things. I guess that you want to hear about a casino before you even go into it, you want to hear from the people that have been in it.
Heather - Oh Okay. Do they have a forum or a chat room online with all this?
Mystery Guest - You know I don’t deal with that stuff, but I believe they do.
Heather - Okay.
Mystery Guest - I think there are ways to get that information.
Heather - Okay. Cool. Do you know any websites that you could recommend to our audience?
Mystery Guest - No.
Heather - So that’s secret too. Just so you know. Mums the word. I got you. I got you covered. We’ve got James Bond thing going on here we are good. Okay cool. So is there anything else that I haven’t asked that you have to consider that we could talk about?
Mystery Guest - You mean in terms of how to make money card counting?
Heather - Yes.
Mystery Guest - Okay. We have covered a lot. Not in depth but what we have covered the important things that you need to think about -- the bank roll, having honest team mates, how much heat you going to give to the casino, you need to have rules, adjust your play accordingly, you need to look for the -- I guess the one thing we haven’t talked about is penetration.
Heather - Hey watch it, I don’t want any more videos deleted from YouTube this is not porn I swear.
Mystery Guest - Penetration is very important in Blackjack.
Heather - So tell me a little more about it then.
Mystery Guest - Well it’s the farther they deal down in the deck.
Heather - Oh. And you have to take that into consideration when you're doing the true count.
Mystery Guest - Yeah you have to take that into consideration when you are figuring out how much money you are going to win on this game.
Heather - Right.
Mystery Guest - And certainly you know -- you should know how much you are expected to win hourly. It will be certainly higher if they deal more of the cards.
Heather - So you are looking for a dealer who has high hands per hour?
Mystery Guest - That’s important too sure a fast dealer. Working high hands per hour. The penetration is probably more important. You know because it’s really important at the end of the deck whether it’s a 8 deck or a single deck.
Heather - Do you have to start at the very beginning or can you just enter a game just --
Mystery Guest - Start at the beginning.
Heather - Okay. Thought so. So deck penetration and it’s just keeping an eye on the shoe, and then watching to see how many decks are left in the shoe and then you base your count on that via the true count. And then you use that every time you make a bet or you try to -- I don’t know do insurance or something like that?
Mystery Guest - That’s right. That kind of stuff I take for granted. But there’s also -- I used to wrestle with the idea of a balanced count, where there’s an unbalanced a count… Where you don’t lose true count. There's a red 7 count. There’s some other unbalanced counts. There’s counts where -- By unbalanced I mean when we talk about the high/low, the 10’s and aces verses 2 thru 6, there's the exact equal number of those. So you're counting those, then you're figuring out the true count. Like how rich or poor is the deck, per deck.
Heather - Okay.
Mystery Guest - That’s how you usually get your indexes and such. But there are unbalanced counts, because they are unbalance you never have to figure that out?
Heather - Okay so the unbalance one that’s whenever it’s even, that’s when you have the same amount of 10s and the same amount of numbers.
Mystery Guest - That’s balance. And the unbalanced is when it’s unbalanced. That’s is more of one than the other --
Heather - Hence unbalanced.
Mystery Guest - It’s kind of crazy, it’s kind of wild to get your head around. It does create a situation where you don’t have to figure out the true count.
Heather - When would you --
Mystery Guest - Your count moves as you get further into the deck, in a way it allows you to not have to figure out the true Count. I am not an expert on unbalance counting. And I am sorry I brought it up, but it is something to look into if you are interested in it. But if you are just not good at the true count -- for me the true count I live -- the true count really natural easy thing.
Heather - So you don’t do the unbalanced?
Mystery Guest - I don’t.
Heather - Okay. Okay. So can you describe -- maybe some of the heat that you have had to experience, as well as how to handle it. I think a lot of people that don't handle it very well -- I mean I don’t blame them. You have security guards, you have the people that come up to you, they are very hostile, they are very aggressive, they want to kick you out. I understand being upset about that. Apparently it happens all the time. So what is a good way to handle that?
Mystery Guest - Sure. Well I have a few things I would say. I have a lot of experience at it. I have not always done it perfectly. I would say, what you do have to keep in mind that fairness is overrated. Nobody told you it’s going to be fair. So it’s not about -- so to react like, “What do you mean I can’t play? I wasn’t doing anything wrong!” To react like that is just silly. For me when I walk into a casino, I feel like I am walking into a cartoon. And now I am part of that cartoon. I am a character.
Heather - Okay.
Mystery Guest - And I -- I mean it’s -- maybe it’s mean or you could say it’s not nice to treat humans not like humans. But that's what I do. You are there to maximize your advantage, maximize your expected value as you play this game of blackjack. And so any of the heat things that come up they are just different characters in this cartoon playing their part.
Heather - Oh okay.
Mystery Guest - Some of the ways that plays out. You know when you are done, and you know you are done and they are not going to let you play any more, just get out. Just leave. Just take your chips and leave.
Heather - Now --
Mystery Guest - And don’t argue! It’s over. Don’t argue, don’t complain, it’s a cartoon. Just leave.
Heather - So for casino managers out there, because there are casino managers watching, do you have any advice for them on how to say -- kick someone out? I don’t think the way some of them do it are very efficient, they are not nice -- there is a way to do it and there is not a way to do it. So can you give me an example of a good way to do it and not a good way to do it?
Mystery Guest - Well I think that a lot of casino managers would benefit that cartoon analogy. Well it’s not quite the same for them. These are a friend, they are working with people they know, their coworker, their friend, and they are trying to do their job, you know, protect the casino. What we see a lot is we see more consternation that is deserved for the money that we or the other people are winning. Just card counters are not dangerous to casinos. Card counters are the reason blackjack is so popular, even when people weren't actually counting well themselves and knew that they could count. And so that made -- oh there’s a way to beat this game, I’m going to play it. Even though I am not playing that way. So, card counting doesn’t threaten casinos at all. And if you really know someone is good, sure ask them not to play, but that’s certainly -- you don’t need to get worked up about it, if you are the casino manager and you don’t need to. It’s just not that serious. Why not be nice? Your life will be better. Why not. Don’t over react.
Heather - Don’t over react. Yeah.
Mystery Guest - I mean sure tell people not to play blackjack when you know they are counting.
Heather - Yeah. You can do that nicely. You know, thank you so much, we really appreciate it but unfortunately you are too good for us.
Mystery Guest - And card counters as well could learn from the -- could take that advice too. That these people are just doing their jobs. They asked you not to play -- I mean don’t come back and say it’s not fair. Fairness -- nothing -- life is not fair. No one ever told me life is fair. Fairness is overrated.
Heather - And this is a cat and mouse game. It’s all a part of the game.
Mystery Guest - Yeah. And there’s been some -- I’ve had some many very friendly -- they often turn out -- some casino people turn out to be friends. Some people that don’t want me to play there turn out to be friends. Some not!
Heather - Very cool. So last question that I have for you was, I’ve had casino managers tell me that the reason they are scared of card counters is because they are worried the card counters are going to come into the casino, take a lot of money really fast and then leave. Have you ever experienced that?
Mystery Guest - Well they are not doing the math correctly when they say that. Certainly a card counter can come in and go on a big winning streak and then leave. But you have to look at their expected value is. You have to look at the math. What their expect value. For every card counter that does and other counters that come in and loose, loose, loose, loose and then leave you know. I think -- mostly casinos overreact and card counters are not really dangerous.
Heather - I completely agree. And it’s also -- what you were saying before and I want to emphasize on it, in the 60s blackjack wasn ’t a very big game. Card counting made it a big game, because of that reason...because of card counting we have a ton of blackjack tables in a lot of casinos. Casinos make a lot of money off of it because people think that they can beat the system. That’s all a part of it. So for casinos to say we don’t want any card counting they are sort of cutting their own tail off because that is the revenue that they need.
Mystery Guest - Right. Most of the casinos that do really well it’s fun to be there and it’s friendly to be there. It’s an inviting atmosphere. A casino where the suits are all running around squinting and somebody is taking insurance deep into a deck, are they counting, do they know there are more 10s in that deck? Casinos when that was happening it’s not as fun. They aren’t making that much money.
Heather - Yeah sweating the money is not a good thing. Sweating the money is bad for casinos. Not a good thing.
Mystery Guest - That’s right.
Heather - Yeah. Well thank you so so much for being on her. Thank you so much for doing the interview. Before we end is there anything you want to talk about that we didn’t discuss that maybe you want to bring up?
Mystery Guest - It’s been fun visiting with you.